Regarding to the illegal Vietnamese immigrants, it is absolutely stupid to suggest our government to stop or to repatriate them back. All procedures are solely depending on the Cambodian immigration law. You should not be so fool saying something explicitly obscure. One important thing, Cambodian government has to implement the current Cambodian immigrant law that has already well inscribed in the paper, but significantly government has never implemented it correctly.
Law is the most important thing for any nation to cope and legitimize their nation-state. Vietname has been known as the invader of Cambodia, essentially referring to the international law adopted by the UN which represented by major members around globe....so it is
correctly for all Cambodians to say in the same voice that "Vietnam had surely invaded Cambodia in January 7, 1979". If someone else saying different from this, it is because of their PTSD, less educated, fear, politically-affiliated, and situational
incomprehension etc
Everyone knows, Vietnam has stopped the brutality of Khmer Rouge, but it is thoughtful for us that why Vietnam primarily exposed themselves as the big brother of Khmer Rouge to combat with America and they shared the same political blog (communism) backed by China and Russia.
Is it possible that Vietnam played the political game of burning our house and rescued us later as it is almost become ashes. Explicitly and implicitly, Vietnam has to take responsibility of Cambodian brutality. Vietnam should not manipulate us by identifying their goodness only. But may be not Vietnam who manipulate us, it might be our same race Cambodians (not everybody, only small group of Cambodians) who manipulate us that Vietnam is rescuer with their
volunteering soldiers.
However, Khmer Rouge and Vietnam's intervention in January 7, 1979 is one of the complicate issues as the Khmer Rouge trial is continuing. We, Khmers bear the vision that Khmer Rouge brutality and Vietnam's intervention is two different things that we should not mix together.
Khmer Rouge's regime is too much brutal, and Vietnam's intervention in Cambodia is too much invasive. For the Khmer Rouge, Cambodia learn the best lesson of history not to allow it happens again; for the Vietnam's intervention, Cambodia has learned the sensitive history of foreign occupation and colonization that Cambodia like other nation-state love their own autonomy, independence, sovereignty, and territory integrity.
KY
20 comments:
so what will you suggest Vietnamese people should do when their homeland people were slaughtered by Khmer Rouge? Stay there and watching?
It's so ridiculous and you say these two things are totally different.
I would say like this: if there were no Vietnam intervention would you be existed today to blog about this or you are still hanging around in jungle and wondering what the internet is?
Hung,
Thanks for your visiting my blog. It is simply to answer your question that "if you are Champ or Khmer Kampuchea Krom people, how do you respond to the coming of Vietnamese?"
I read some history papers written by Vietnamese that they genuinely came to rescue Champ and Khmer Kampuchea Krom, not to dominate or totally control their territory land.
The history has repeated again that Vietnamese came to liberate Cambodians from Khmer Rouge brutality. But it is unluckily that the time while Vietnam presented in Cambodia was different from the time they presented in Champ and Kampuchea Krom.
Vietnam was called by UNs to withdraw their troops and stop all activities of invasion and aggression in Cambodia.
Not only following the UN's legal adoption, as having Khmer mentality I will not welcome both Khmer Rouge brutality and invasive Vietnamese troops.
KY
Hi there,
It's a GAME board - and people lives are worthless pieces.
If I were you - a Cambodian, I also want to say "Vietnamese invasion" is not acceptable.
+ The UN (let say THE USA)
I believe they would think "the enemy of enemy is a friend". And that might be the reason why Khmer Rouge got supports from USA + Thailand and why UN called for Vietnamese military withdrawal.
Now, the main piece in the BOARD - CHINA.
+ Why Vietnam had to support Khmer Rouge?
A bit about history:
- After Korea War, China had to look South because the US was there ( South Vietnam - 1954).
So you say Vietnam supported Khmer Rouge - yes "it's true". However, the REAL one was CHINA. (better know where Pol Pot got his training from)
+ Why Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnam?
History:
- Before and after the war with US, the ideology of Ho Chi Minh was very consistent. We want to be friends with all (USA - the most). I believe that attitude upset Mao Ze-dong a lot.
And it came to no surprise that Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnam's border. (Just to remind you the fact that all weapons used by Khmer Rouge in this war came from China)
+ One very important information to mention is Vietnam-China War.
Right after Vietnamese "invasion" to Cambodia, China attacked North Vietnam. The reason?
Yes I'm a Vietnamese, and please understand for us that we had no choice to "come into" your country.
If you put yourself in our country (a country never ever surrendered to anyone's control), I believe you would do the same:
With moron attack from Khmer Rouge - the monster of Communism - we had to get it out of power.
With China attack from the North, we had no choice but to leave Khmer Rouge survived in the West of Cambodia.
After all, both of our countries were "losing".
To Vietnam, relationships with UN, EU were destroyed (China was very happy to see this) because people around the world think we were so cruel.
To Cambodia, your country lost several generations during Khmer Rouge Regime and civil war afterward - what else can I say?
Vietnam pulled COMPLETELY out of Cambodia in 1989 - We did NOT want to invade your country.(Unlike US attack Iraq because of oil)
Finally, none lives with history forever. So it's the best to be friends - especially when our countries are next to each other. We also want to be "FRIEND" with China (and will not talk about someone's mistake).
Well said Hoang,
I love the concept to live in the present and look for the future. Also I love to be friendly and mutually understandable, rather than to face or confront with each other. This trend is practically successful for the modernistic approach.
But to live in the present without learning from the past is surely lacking something substantial. Cambodian people want to see the progressive present and the brighter future. But the status quo of the brutal past is still haunting them. The past has been strongly politicizing Cambodians. And the past persons are still in there and watching them closely.
I am pragmatical to believe Pol Pot who said that if Khmer Rouge didn't defeat Lon Nol first, Vietnam will defeat them and annex Cambodia into a great Indochina Peninsula. Pol Pot has branded as a political paranoia, but some of his speech is not groundless.
The disengagement of Vietnam with China is the key policy of Uncle Ho to free his country from the threat of Great China. Uncle Ho was smart to understand China's ambition. Uncle Ho was rightly predictive to the possible conflict between Russia and China. Uncle Ho planned to ally with Russia to benefit both freeing Vietnam from China and annexing Cambodia and Lao into the organization once created by French. Uncle Ho has renewed the legacy of French colonial.
As a Cambodian younger generation, I admire the gradual success of Vietnamese leadership in expanding their territory, developing their economic, particularly the right predicting of their future's political engagement with the outside world. Currently, Vietnam has been a strong state with strong leadership, strong economic tendency, and self-reliance. Though, Vietnam is a communist-leadership style, but this country is considered as a "strong state".
Looking at Cambodia, not mention the case of Lao who has been totally possibly under the vanguard of Vietnam; Cambodia is still considered a weak state under a strongman, Hun Sen. Communist or democracy is not important thing for any state nowadays, but the important thing is the viable structural government and the legal implementation of that country.
Cambodia is not in that category because:
- One leader is strongly showing his ability. How smart he is, single leader cannot ensure the strong structure of complex government administration. From past to present, one country with one lasting leader cannot avoid from division, conflict and disaster.
- One strong leader in Cambodia with his patronage government has no will and effort to develop self-reliance. Cambodia is weak because it is surviving through foreign aids, elites domination and intervention of lasting friendship policy particularly Vietnam. Vietnam who has supported Hun Sen and his group to lead this country ever since.
---Cambodia is still considered very weak and easily fragile, and with this weakness I admire Uncle Ho's planning attempted being a lasting friend with Cambodia and Lao---
This is a tale of "A weak state with a Strongman"
I will talk to you more next time, Hoang
Please, accept my sincere regards
KY
Do n't be stupid, silly, fool ah bastard yuon kantop. Your guys are the thieves who stole Kampuchea Krom territory which is all Khmer are still alive and speak Khmer language. Everything is belong to Khmer. Ah thief stealing land from Champa and Khmer. Shut up and wash your brain while entering to this blog next time.
One the Khmer people in Cambodia since the 1954 era.
Hoang
China was with Vietnam and supported Vietnam from the beginning. Pol Pot Khmer Rouge was insignificant at the beginning and only became a Chinese pawn after he came to power. During the Vietnam War, Pol Pot went to China personally via Vietnam to request for a direct supply to the Khmer Rouge from China instead of getting the supply from Vietnam, China instead told Pol Pot to get the supply from Vietnam. In the eyes of Pol Pot this was "a slave of a slave".
Pol Pot had his own ambition and vision for the Khmer Communists, to be independent from Vietnam – Pol Pot never wanted to be under Vietnam. Just like Vietnam never wanted be under anybody. This was and still is a fair ambition for any leader.
Vietnam wanted to be the boss in the region and would rather have someone that not shares the border with it and thus the Soviet Union was the best candidate at the time. So bye bye China and this is still the policies of Vietnam.
Why China invaded Vietnam in 1979?
Most political analysts would think that it was to help the disorganised Khmer Rouge that was routed by the invading Vietnamese army. The real intention was not to help the Khmer Rouge, but to set the stage for Vietnam for the Cambodian quagmire so Vietnam couldn't recover/rebuild its economy while at the same time China was on the way to reform its economy. It was never designed to help Pol Pot, but Pol Pot and the Western observers would think that was the case. If the intention was to help Pol Pot KR, the Chinese wouldn't withdraw without any conditions attached to the Cambodia issues, not because of the Soviet Union the new powerful boss of Vietnam. You don't send ten of thousands of your blood to die for others. No one would believe this.
Pol Pot KR fell into the trap of Vietnam when the KR did the cross border attacks which triggered the VN to invade Cambodia. Pol Pot knew he had no match with the VN. In short Pol Pot was inexperience and stupid.
You are right that both countries were losing. But what I noticed is as follow:
Vietnam fought two wars in the modern day history, 1. The French colonialism; 2. The American Imperialism. Vietnam despised any form of colonialism/imperialism and fought strongly against it in order to make itself a new colonialist/imperialist in the region. This is why I say Vietnam is a hypocrite and why I say Vietnam did not come to save the Cambodians. Note I was only a child during the Pol Pot KR and survived the regime. I was a new people(17 April people).
The main troop occupying army was out of Cambodia in 1989, but the hidden forces are still there.
In order for us to live peaceful in coexistence as good neighbours we have to respect the sovereignty and national integrity of each other, no truly independent nation/race can stand the violation of its territories. I don't blame Vietnam, but I blame our spineless and slave attitude of the current Khmer leaders. Cambodia had/has lost a lot to Vietnam in terms of land. I need not elaborate in this since you have a good knowledge of politics you know the history of the region.
KNM
Hung Guyen,
How can ask about the death of those hundres Youns killed by Khmers, why dont you ask yourself the millions khmers (Khmer krom) who killed, are killing and will be killed by your people in Kampuchea krom? Please be a man, live and think as a man. You cruel people should have stopped this bloody thinking and invading. Please wake up!
Hey, Khmer Young? Did you call Ho Chi Minh "Uncle Ho", I thought just us Vietnamese call him so
What wrong with just that polite calling? I prefer to call him Uncle Ho, like Uncle Sam, and other Uncles as well.
Le
Well said, the young generation in Cambodia NEVER understood what had happened to their parents' generation, instead only looking at present issues like land annexing or ideological difference, or political diversion. It's true that although we are very close neighbours, we are totally different in every senses, unlike Vietnam and China. Vietnam was under Chinese domination for thousands of years and most Vietnam tradition, language and rituals are from China. But nothing like that seen in Vietnam - Cambodia perspectives. I could imagine Cambodia opposition to Vietnam is much like Vietnam's opposition to China, but causes must be clearly distinguished.
With regard to the presence of Vietnam in Cambodia in late 70s to 80s, I bet most Cambodians weren't tauched how their past generations had gone thru the murderous regime of Polpot. The current generation in Cambodia is simply too young and ignorant, too preoccupied by other issues so as to jump conclusion rather than look at historical context and why they should have been grateful of the Viet, including my dad serving there for 3 years. Without the Viet intervention, Cambodia was just a another sad story like North Korea under the Chineses' chessboard.
By the way, UN is NOT a standard for anyone to take stand. If you look at the impotency of UN, the ignorance of big powers, the filthy politics all together, I would suggest you that Cambodia is just a mockery of UN failure. Although Polpot was convited of the massacre of more than 1 million Cambodians from 75-79, he DID it with the support of Beijing, and arms from US, UK and many other countries simply because they wanted to stop the Soviet expansion in Southeast Asia, regardless of how many human lives lost. Even after the collapse of the Polpot regime, such countries still RECOGNISED the Polpot's seat at UN. What? And now, they made up their mind by asking INTERNATIONAL COURT to try Polpot regime, so basically outlawing that regime and REVERSING their own position. WTF? If you look at the latest example of Iraq, you would know why UN was, and is, a mere tool for some countries to manipulate the whole world.
There is no gain or loss for both our countries, as we are too small and often being taken as a pawn on the chessboard of big countries, we were ALL LOSERS. Vietnam has learnt a lot from its history and I think we have a pretty good government in presence. Be soft to deal with contentious issues, but tough when it comes to national soveignty. Many young generations are just too ignorant, simplistic, cocky to understand the position we are now.
4:33AM
I am aware that Khmer Rouge brutality is unacceptable. Now I am insulted as too ignorant, simplistic and cocky to understand the current Cambodia position. You can say whatever you can express your personal opinion. But be aware that your personal opinion is just yours. It cannot be ours. Thus, I am not in the imagination world or in the world of opinion. I would like to allow you to understand that I am in the real world and empirical opinion.
I am young Cambodian. I lost my parents, siblings and other several relatives. This loss has trembled me ever since. But I have never lost to call for fair treatment from others, particularly Vietnam who should not use hegemonic policy over Cambodia through the expense of our relatives' suffering in their great westward march. They should stop try to legitimize their invasion.
First, your argument has some weigh. Many foreign scholars have called current ongoing trial of Khmer Rouge leaders as "travesty of justice". They have commented the same thing like what you are telling me here. But I am really disturbed from this low class analysis and alien approaches to describe the situation in Cambodia.
For Cambodia, if we don't have the UN and international communities, we don't have present Cambodia. But what is worse is that "present Cambodia has not yet been well solved by the UN". Cambodia still has imperialistic legacy of Vietnam. I know your word is logical and sweat, but I can say your word is good to keep your "status quo" of hegemony and domination over Cambodia.
Secondly, many other countries like Germany or Japan experienced brutality or genocide or race elimination, but after the war, these countries have stopped to debate about right and wrong, legitimate or illegitimate to what was happening in the past of their countries. Only Cambodia who is use Khmer Rouge brutality to seek justice, healing, and strengthening the rule of laws. Actually, it is only serving the "status quo" of Vietnam inside Cambodia. I know your word here is really logical and reasonable to current Cambodian political leaders. They are drunk of power and sometime brainwashed by Vietnam. The present Cambodian political leaders inside the government, most of them are working for personal fame, money and power, they don't care what is happening in the future.
These two things might help you to understand more about "real world and empirical opinion" of younger Cambodians.
KY
Le
I think I "used to have" the same thinking like you toward China, or many young generations in Cambodia (whatever many called brainwashed by hatred of Viet land grab, or hegemony etc), but an open minded person would need to take others' account too.
"For Cambodia, if we don't have the UN and international communities, we don't have present Cambodia.", I think you missed the other half of the sentence, something which you did acknowledge before, that you wouldn't have present Cambodia, or even yourself writing here and there, without the Viet's help. Of course neither the Viet or China presence was good (I hate communism too, as it is no good anywhere as we have seen the failure of Soviet, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, China etc all the poorest countries in the world). But it is what it is, whether you like it or not. But, I am INSULTED too that many young generations in Cambodia forgot the price the Viet paid to help secure the country from genocide, now to attack Viet presence IGNORING the whole history. Same situation as many Viet guys now turn against China. During the hard time we were friends, but peace time many conflicts arise which will never be solved like land issues. BUT, live with it whether we like it or not (mean status quo).
You would go too far if you try to compare any Asian style with Japan, Germany or any Western countries. I guess you may be studying in some of those countries, so do I living in US for long. It helps changes my view of China and how the current world issues (look at the war in Iraq, Georgia) may have an implication for small countries in relation with bigger, more powerful and sometime not very benign neighbours. Of course I wish US was still staying in Vietnam, so their institution would transform Vietnam to country like Japan. But it wasn't the case.
The very contentious issue you mention again and again here than there, Vietnam dominance and hegemony, I would want to know how you "define" such a term? of course I would imagine Vietnam-Cambodia as China-Vietnam, which one "dominates" another. Surely you are unhappy with it, as well as many in Cambodia. But I just want to remind you that keeping national tradition, rituals, culture, politics from being affected have to do more with how you deal with such influence and integration of one in another, not trying to EXPULSE what you don't like. What I have seen is just the influence, rather than exaggerated, "hegemony", which the later is more specific about using military might and pressure to corner others. Viet isn't in a position to do that. Dominance is correct. But that happens in every countries everywhere. Vietnam is heavily under influence of China, same for Canada under US, or Cambodia under Vietnam. There is nothing "wrong" with it, except if you are afraid of culture loss. What can you do about it?
By the way, the main issue to how Cambodia can make good of itself, rather than blame here and there for their situation. Same as the Viet, I wish our country could do like the Chinese did with a strong government. It has to come with the people better education, economic development and awareness of the rules of law, yet it won't happen very soon. We all have a corrupt government, but it is changing, as it is more open nowadays than in the past.
My last words, most importantly, from a very open minded person, is that sometime it is better to live with controversial issues, in order to achieve economic development, which both improve people lives and at the same time strengthen national images, than trying to shoot it down first then whatever later. Politics are dirty and corrupt everywhere. So we sometime have to put the ultranationalism view aside, as it only obstructs our steps forward. The one who well behaves will be the one who survives and develops as in Darwin theory. The Viet had lost the whole past century and millions of lives to learn from its mistakes.
May 31, 2009 7:03 AM – worthless viets/ yuon augments, hear aa kantop, this cant work with people with a brain to think and well informed about yuon ancestral culture of animosity and atrocity against other people in the region.
Khmer rouge = YUONS
To those, why lose time to aa with aa kantop, brain smell of bloody malice and crime?
Quite here
* to arge
For vietcong,
Why there are Cambodians who don’t or cant thank vietcongs for coming to chasse khmer rouge polpot from power in which vietcongs named is as “coming to save Cambodians”? Simple, because those people are well acknowledge of viet attitudes and viet ever ill ancestral political maneuvers and atrocities. And they also know that Khmer rouge is just a viet political instrument, founded and maneuver by viets. So 7 jan 79, yuons didn’t come to save Cambodia but just to chase out one of its tools to be replaced by another one. Yuons think, it’s a well beneficial political maneuver for them to better colonize and control Cambodians in all legitimated and impunity. Without this malice political maneuvers, viets would not have easily control and colonize Cambodia as it is doing today.
For the auteur of this article, I don’t think that khmer rouge brutality of 17 April and viet invading of Cambodia is two different things but a simple viet political strategy like an arrow that can kill two birds at time. If you still at this intelligence, you will walk into polpot or hun sen path alike. Yuons are the real owners 17 april 75 victory and real architects of the killing fields as they are the only masters of 7 jan 1979. Of course, no one can ignore the crimes of those who are working for big yuon killing industry, they named polpot, sihanouk, hor nam hong or hun sen.
To all of you Viet-Numis out there can you answere to my Questions?
What you Viet are doing in Khmer Krom's Land?
Have ever seen any thieves have committed crimes and confest?
to you numis are the same!
Le,
Comparing Cambodia-Vietnam with Vietnam-China is exasperatingly diverting the real issue here. China has short shared-border line than Cambodia with Vietnam. Historically, China expelled Vietnamese tribe (or Kinh ethnic) to escape Southward. In that moment, Vietnamese ancestors had successfully expanded their land southward (like the name Vietnam or Viet and Nam itself literally translated its meaning as Southward Marching/Expanding). This Southward expanding finally could swallow Champa, Prey Norkor and Khmer Krom. And all Vietnamese leaders are expecting to annex Lao and Cambodia, the ideal Indochina once created by the French. Vietnam's ambition is not only there. Uncle Ho planned to expand communist ideology as well as expand his Real Estate Business throughout the South East Asia. Uncle Ho is a special member of world communist movement, and his operational location is in South East Asia. So I don't see that you have hate towards China. You should pay gratitude to China that you have today.
From this brief history, you can see China has used propaganda and intimidation towards Vietnam rather than taking real action like Vietnam sent hundred thousands of troops to post in Cambodia for almost 10 years. China operated a so-called instruction war with Vietnam during Vietnam invaded Cambodia. It was just a pre-emptive war, not a containing war. But Vietnam's presence in Cambodia was intended to contain or plant its strong roots inside Cambodia land. At least, Vietnam planned to contain and maintain its status quo through two things:
1. Populating the Vietnamese people inside Cambodia land through population strategy that Vietnam used to take over Champa, Prey Norkor and Khmer Krom: planting the people, encroaching new plot to create village, and lay down the village administration. Cambodia has undeniably been full of Vietnamese residents and Vietnamese imposter policemen in major areas in Cambodia.
2. Creating Vietnam's shadow government (or general public called puppet government) that means the leaders are Cambodians but structures and powerful advisers are Vietnamese. Cambodia has no empirical study focusing on this matter, but many Cambodian elites and figures have favorite tendency towards Vietnam more than Cambodian people (in case of current opposition political party has been bullied/arrested/insulted while those elites/figures pay respect and value Vietnamese in all events).
These two legacies of Vietnam has tremendously embedded in Cambodian society and it is literally named "hegemony" or "domination". Hegemonic behavior means trying to influence and pressure others through either military, political structure, kleptocracy or other patrimonial strategic plans. In dictionary, hegemony means the position of being the strongest and most powerful and therefore able to control others. Vietnam has projected to play this role in Cambodia. Like in Lao, Vietnam agreed to have border markers installation but Vietnam knows well that Cambodia cannot control their people who entered and lived in Cambodia efficiently. This strategy of using people to expand territorial land is very smart and genius.
You mentioned about maintaining culture, rituals, tradition or ancient monuments is the good thing for Cambodia to keep its identity and nation. Your word is not true and sometime it is very manipulative. While you are anti ultranationalism but you advocate to see Cambodia has culture survival. Of course, cultural politics had been used in the past and the people became obsessive nationalism. Thus, colonialism can still control them all. For instance, like you are living in the US, you can see Indian population, or the Natives in Canada can preserve whatever identity they want, but what has been happening to them nowadays?
I am younger Cambodian has never seen that culture is more important than to have the politicians who have political will for their nation. Current Cambodian leaders are planning to self-destruction because they are proud of Khmer culture and rocky-temples, but they have never concerned to project their long-sighted and strong-structured government leadership. Cambodian leaders have been neglected to strengthen the rule of laws and support a real democratic system. On the other hand, incumbent Cambodian leaders don't know the enemy emerging from inside, especially, the Vietnamese population that has been grown up rapidly in these decades.
America has powerful influence over Canada, but Canada government is very strong and they has projected their country to govern by the rule of laws. Canada welcomes immigrants from everywhere but those immigrants have to follow the immigration laws of Canada. What other examples that you need to know? Cambodia is not in situation like Canada.
I do agree with you that controversy is good for now for Cambodian government to strictly implement its rule of laws and particularly, the immigration laws before it is too late!
KY
--@ Their idiology of Khmer then is the same with them idiotic thoughts now , that the Vietnam people, their government and their military will do NOTHING or fail in counter-attack.
- They Khmer Rouge and Polpot was wrong then .
An Giang - Chau Doc - Tay Ning:
Polpot communist forces had their chance attacking and killing all those villages throughout 1975 to 1977.
- To those young and old Khmers : I cannot see them going anywhere , to keep such regret and pounding themselves against a much stronger VN with their current communist regime.
Sad to say, your bright future-hopeful seems still much far away for your country still having so much backward hatred toward VN
- Their Khmer heritage was flagged proudly , but with anything but idiotic and foolishnees in theirs thinking ie. previous blogs
The VN done nothing as bad to Khmers , as what they do to their own people.
At the end of the day - let's not forget :
Had VN even themselves want not to invade - for whatever reason, the Polpot would not leave the VN - and their own people in peace.
The only ones who was DEAD now would say otherwise - and that would be alot of Khmer people in those killing fields - killed by their own men in their own country .
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